But not being able run a baby instance locally just as easily means sacrificing your development loop. Either way, unless it is a very complex app that has lots of external dependencies, 4 days is a bit much. You call this ease of freaking use? So what, the suggestion is to go with Heroku instead? It only took three days to fix it the second time. I dont think you can build a docker container without already understanding concepts that you need to run rsync. I deployed API (AWS::Serverless::Function) on AWS using SAM. I more or less gave up after a month of beating my head on the brick wall. P.S. This removes so many decisions and ongoing overhead and lets you focus on building the thing that actually delivers value. That said, GCP is so much easier to use and easily usable by a novice because it has a lot of good defaults. I suppose my problem is that the enormous complexity paired with the utility billing feels like I'm trying to drink from a pool of water surrounded by enormous lurking predators (the 800-pound gorilla analogy seems apt). This really depends on what you are building of course. The high bills only come later, if ever, after you've decided to create 20 databases and 50 apps for your 70 person startup. Theres been an seo template since slashdot ages of find a prevailing wisdom, write a naive clickbaity post, profit. If you're going all-in on Google Cloud and using Firestore, then use the emulators [0]. Dockerized Webservers/task servers: That's a generic and well documented stack that utilizes GCP defaults and works out of the box. Zip. Unsure why it would be reported as phishing. By that I mean, waiting weeks/months to get through tickets, approvals, multiple different teams just to get a server deployed. As soon as you start hitting traffic, functions start to cost a lot vs your own vps. Attorney Advertising. If you're new to TF/AWS I could easily see it taking significantly longer. Well, n=2 for me, but that's not to say you're wrong. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/startups?rtc=1 Strange, tried to access this page with my clients vpn on, but got FortiGuard blocked because site is classified as 'phishing'. Weve found at work that if you already have the talent, the hyper scale cloud platforms are amongst the most expensive ways to manage infrastructure if you go all in. Its free. Bark Box Muffler Covers. Apache processes requests with MPM-s or Multi-Processing-Modules, which is responsible for binding to network ports on the machine, accepting requests, and dispatching children to handle the requests.. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. For personal projects this is exactly what I do. Within the free tier itself, assuming you can process each request in 250ms on a 1 vCPU container, you get 720,000 requests before you start paying for compute usage. Pretty much starts with you dont want the cost and complexity and then goes on from that point as a given. Scaling to dozens of global regions is not cost effective for running your own DCs. It also lets a CFO convert capex to opex (may or may not have tax implications), and you eliminate a cost center from your balance sheets (and turns it into service payments) which makes CFOs look better, even if it's net worse for the Company, Ok. We have been using CDK on AWS and it is really nice because you can do complex things through Typescript. Im not the sales guy. I can't speak for Terraform since I usually use CloudFormation / SAM directly. In Netflix more than 10 years ago, it's more like this: a single engineer builds a deployment/management tool: 1 - 2 months. An API on localhost may not be useful, but an API running on a single VPS or dedicated server could take you very far. Yes, theres a steep learning curve. CALL 9-1-1 When you feel your situation needs emergency care. > If, like me, you're working for a Fortune 200 company and it takes multiple ServiceNow tickets to get on-prem hardware, You are correct, nothing stops us from taking our terrible on-prem practice and applying them to the cloud except for one thing - it will be more obvious that we screwed the pooch because they let some renegades in, > if like me, you're working for a Fortune 200 company and it takes multiple ServiceNow tickets to get on-prem hardware. Terraform is a nice tool but its a VERY slow development cycle. I run apps on all three platforms (Google, AWS, and Azure) and my monthly spend is less than $2.00 < month using a mix of free tier services and consumption based services (Google Cloud Run, Google Firestore, AWS CloudFront, AWS S3, Azure Functions, Azure CosmosDB). As for cost, they all offer generous free tiers for learning & hobby projects. Actually I dont think the other 2 clouds have anything as nice and easy as Cloud Run. How to help a student who has internalized mistakes? Fargate, image repo, NAT gateway, I don't even remember all the nonsense at this point but it was ridiculous. Don't use AWS, GCP or Azure. The application gets cheaper, but you've now also bought yourself into the ecosystem and you're never migrating anywhere else. If you don't know some AWS basics and you are a generalist web developer, you'd probably do well to learn them in order to make yourself a more marketable engineer. BUT. The emulators includes Pub/Sub. None of that made our products better from a customer perspective. https://inthecloud.withgoogle.com/startup/dl-cd.html. On prem is. On AWS, the load balancer is also surprisingly pricey; easily eats up $20/mo. Each $1.00 is another ~38,000 vCPU seconds (@1 GiB second) or ~152,000 requests @ 250ms per request. A specific technology product never exists in a vaccuum it has to communicate and co-exist with other components in the system. With Fargate or Google Cloud Run, it really isn't. If you dont know the ins and outs of AWS, then yes, you probably shouldnt use it for your next MVP or startup idea. Of course this is function of what you're optimizing for, and whether you want to go down the "boring monolithic app" route. This seems very reasonable to me. My honest opinion, using some third party tools/services on top of AWS only creates tech debt. Curious though: where are you based? Are there better and cheaper options for your organization? Use Digital Ocean and the likes. OTOH you can pick a managed datsbase: you just get a connection string to a Postgres with failover and backup already taken care of. So right away that I cant believe they even charge my CC for $0.02 is real suspect. Just use Lambda Functions. Harder than it should be. Will it have a bad influence on getting a student visa? Sorry, the next step after cloud isn't running your own DC's. Certain parts of this website require Javascript to work. Services like cloud are just tools and tools always have pros and cons. As long as you can copy/paste an app runtime specific Dockerfile (e.g. > - Terraform to create the API gateway, database, lambdas, queues, Route 53 records: 1 week. And more to my point, how many datacenters do you think are "modern"? Add to cart. Spare capacity is much cheaper than people make it out to be. Browse other questions tagged, Where developers & technologists share private knowledge with coworkers, Reach developers & technologists worldwide, It would be good if you posted updated code/config samples to make it easier for others to follow your changes, How to change REST API Endpoint to Private programatically with yml template, Going from engineer to entrepreneur takes more than just good code (Ep. You probably dont need secrets manager. If that's starting to be not enough, then consider yourself lucky, and start scaling. The pattern that is free on AWS and costs a fair amount on digital ocean is one or two VPS-es (or equivalent serverless/kubernetes compute) plus a managed database instance. Designing for me as a single user is different from designing for other users. That's fine for the app, but what about the DB? > so it's not any better than rented bare-metal in terms of maintenance overhead, > patching switch firmware, balancing UPS loads, diagnosing flaky switch ports or transceivers, managing logging growth. Say, our project spins up more nodes in anticipation of daily waves of traffic, and then spins them down to save cost when the load goes way down. I would argue since that's where you're going to be hosted anyway - assuming your successful growth - then you should really consider just starting out there in the first place. To start working, you need a VPS instance, a Postgres, and a backup scheme. But if someone gave me the same use case as the author. What's the best way to roleplay a Beholder shooting with its many rays at a Major Image illusion? Since our cloud move those same infra staff support many more services and apps with much faster turnaround for product teams. It's flexible enough to solve everybody's problems so it solves nobody's problems. HONDA. Supabase free tier). I can see how this makes sense for a startup etc that has passed some threshold of operational complexity. You just buy a bunch of servers and when you see the load approaching 70% you buy more. > Heroku/Dokku > Public Cloud >Dedicated servers in someone else's DC > Custom Hardware in custom built data centers. is an open-source software development framework to define cloud infrastructure in code and provision it through AWS CloudFormation. $3.99. If you don't have the managed database, the AWS free tier is a lot less attractive. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Valid point. The AWS documentation is also extremely good with regards to what properties are on each resource. You can run docker on the EC2 and deploy containers. just due to the nature of the cloud. I'm fairly certain this is an argument that we in the tech community make because we heard someone else make it. There are plenty of good alternatives, but AWS is the 800-pound gorilla. Lol. Azure is over $150k. It's a joke. I'd agree that unless you can really profit from having very specific hardware, you're better off renting dedicated servers than colocating servers you own. Is it universally cheaper? > but it seems to me that knowing the basics of AWS (or some cloud provider) has become part of the standard developer's toolkit. Such tools are powerful, flexible, but should not have a place for engineers who just want to provision resources. This article is written in kind of a controversial way but it seems like the throughline of the argument is something like "use heroku until you have 100k users". You should consult with an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction before relying upon any of the information presented here. Felling Dogs. Disclaimer: not a backend or web engineer, I mostly write embedded software, but inevitably need to implement services from time to time (and had a startup at one point). https://aws.amazon.com/activate/ > Used a tiny instance for nat gateway cos aws nat gateway costs $32+ingress. When the migration is complete, you will access your Teams at stackoverflowteams.com, and they will no longer appear in the left sidebar on stackoverflow.com. If you arent buying servers by the hundred or storage by the petabyte, you are unlikely to be competitive with a cloud service without sacrificing multiple of performance, reliability, timeliness, and security. You can also use ALBs (Application Load Balancers) and CloudFront to expose Lambdas to HTTP. > Cultivate a culture of ruthlessly fighting complexity. Same with queue services, email services, etc. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Remote hands won't order your servers, configure your networking, install OSes/configure your PXE, and all the other tedious things running your own DC entails. 1 x EC2 server + 1 x application load balancer and a few S3 buckets works well for my hobby projects (ALB is just for multiple domain SSL and reverse proxy). Sagemaker seems more expensive that doing it via ECS. All of the above are very messy. So it seems like an extra step? Use the right tool for the right job. Its great until something goes wrong with that one machine or VPS. What's stopping them, after they "embrace the Cloud," from making it take multiple ServiceNow tickets and several months to change an IAM policy? It seems like I could setup an endpoint using Sagemaker and then destroy it when no longer needed, and automate all of this but it feels quite messy. Even then- if you have a good relationship with a really good systems integrator, they can ship and rack machines in a matter of days, not weeks. Or at least I've interpreted it as such. To deploy Lambda functions using Node.js 16, upload the code through the Lambda console and select the Node.js 16 runtime. If my local express server, or nginx can deal with 100 endpoints, how is it possible for this multi billion dollar infinitely scalable service to not do the same. Of course then the advice is to plead your case and hope for a credit, but I wouldn't expect everlasting benevolence from Bezos's machine. If all you need is servers, database and storage, then don't waste your money on the major cloud providers. A typical answer from those who use Nomad/TFE: easy, just pass in this 200 lines of Jinja template. My team's ability to get so much done is starting to change that perception. Include FREE Gift Packaging. You're really paying somewhere between the savings of putting a datacenter in Nowhere, Oregon and the cost to convince someone to live there. The current generation of container-based serverless runtimes (Google Cloud Run, Azure Container Apps) is pretty much AMAZING for indie hackers; use whatever framework you want, use middleware, use whatever language you want. Which is about the same cost as AWS. Azure Functions/Lambdna, CosmosDB, Blob Storage/S3, etc. But yes, it's become the industry standard. In my experience the maintenance overhead of the cloud is much lower. But Ive been railing against worrying about lock-in wat before coming to AWS. With AWS in one Startup I was able to build and maintain infrastructure were you needed a small team just 10 years before. Anecdotally, on my own personal projects it took me maybe three hours, or more, to set up IAM policies for AWS Lambda, ECS and RDS. is 1 million requests @ 250ms each request consuming 1 GiB seconds on a 1 vCPU container. Cutting corners looks like saving money right up until it doesnt. Ssh jump to the server and deploy. Ubisofts was pretty terrible though. Your monthly spend is less than two dollars across GCP, AWS and Azure? In my experience Terraform was a horrible pain point, and yet I'd happily suffer it again. It seems you have Javascript turned off in your browser. Step 2: Make definitive statements meant to be applied broadly but actually targeted at a specific situation that the author is experiencing, or comes from the author's own problems with something. There are costs associated with every choice, often hidden costs. There's also something to be said for buying a VPS or a Colo machine, making sure it's backed up and dealing with the 9's that you get from that machine on it's own. I wouldnt suggest any of those tools. Cheap VM compute, managed databases. Have somebody else worry about having people on call to switch out failed hard drives. That worked well in that I had the "two instances behind a load balancer" that you want for seamless upgrade, and managed SQL without having to delve into all the many Google Cloud services for networking etc. Your URL redirector doesn't need 5 9's. The AWS free tier lets you do a lot, and if you use it well, it lets you avoid up to about $50/month of digitalocean bills. That makes sense I guess something about me just likes the purity of running the exact same container on my local machine as would be in prod, but yeah I agree that at some scale that doesn't work. I work for a Fortune 200 company who's risk averse and views "the cloud" with suspicion. The state of implementing IaC is new and foreign for the majority of teams. Exactly. Nothing stops you from using the managed services in a heroku box either. Stick to "tier 2" cloud providers like Digital Ocean or Linode. Having massive capex projects converted to opex is very appealing for a lot of businesses. this "thought leadership" in our industry is a disease. In the end, we dropped Terraform and went back to modifying the GCP manually. Even within a simple product, like deploying serverless, there's SAM vs serverless framework, vs scripted AWS cli. If you utilize typescript it is even safer since you know there are no missing parameters or anything like that. > as opposed to the extreme flexibility of using a cloud provider. Secrets Manager also provides a built-in password generator through the use of AWS CLI. With AWS specifically, there's so much documentation out there about getting started that I think you can have something up in a day or two on something like ECS or lambda (using something like the Serverless framework). There is a middle way, just set your boundaries on which AWS services you want to use. With the various development frameworks/CLIs, AWS has the ecosystem benefits that can make hosting on it a breeze, and leave more time to focus on delivering value to the customer. If your reason is "I know React, but for my specific use case, vanilla HTML/CSS/JS is better" then you are making a more informed decision. Of course its easier to hack something out on localhost than to design for actual users. Those people are speaking from greater experience - there are many things which seem easy but arent once youre over a certain scale, and at large organizations you often have things like conflicting policies or coordinated demand (e.g. Maybe it's a Terraform problem? Same, I do it routinely and maybe the first time I ever did it, it took me a week but after that it was fast. Compute and egress costs can be prohibitive at scale, but features like storage + bigquery (OLAP SQL db where u only pay for queries) are basically free for low-to-moderate volume workloads. Their expertise is in building data centers for other data center companies. My biggest issue with AWS is that the limits are so arbitrary, and seem to solely exist due to terrible design decisions. Its usually much easier to just have a conversation with your account manager. The fact that it is necessary to first download a 3rd party tool (eksctl) to get anything working is insane. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. I use AWS all the time and for startups I 100% agree with this. You just put it between your server and your users and BOOM all your static content gets delivered lightning fast via Amazons world wide CDN. It's significantly cheaper than serverless (when you're past the free tier), the servers just restart if they crash (as opposed to running up a six figure AWS bill), and it's less complicated operationally (it's just a VM, less need to pipe messages with SQS, figure out IAM, etc). It's not going anywhere soon. My response is "yes but what about databases". Ubisoft had a lot of stuff in this area, as does Google. Rejiggling your basic infra just as your growth is starting to accelerate is a non-trivial task, a risk, and something that doesn't fundamentally move the needle. Assuming zero knowledge it's probably easier to learn how to build a docker container and call a binary to send it to the service than it is to setup ssh and rsync and a server to host your website. What are you running that costs $50/month? I'm on the fence about if it should be DO or EKS or GKE or whatever. >Let's face it, choosing AWS is the cloud computing version of "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM". Use CDK so the IaC abstraction is easier. The same thing in GCP takes nearly zero effort. Is there some obvious choice I am missing? They have really simple APIs. Render or Engineyard. Been a couple of years since I used AWS and I remember when CDK was just coming out. Then there are a few other physical servers with load balanced redundant VMs, and it fails over seamlessly. If your hobby project "goes viral," though, it might cost you a few thousand dollars, but hopefully that helps you get a lot more money to turn your hobby into a business. You define the infrastructure and dependencies for your app in a single declarative template. Nobody knew what all ran on that server, worse yet nobody knew that particular service ran on it. I think generally the scaling steps from startup to megacorp go: Heroku/Dokku > Public Cloud >Dedicated servers in someone else's DC > Custom Hardware in custom built data centers. Find centralized, trusted content and collaborate around the technologies you use most. However in modern datacenters no one "installs OSes and configures the network". When an EC2 instance only costs $30 a month to leave running, it's easy to forget about it. Using stacks or not. I don't know. I hear this everywhere. At least mine doesn't seem to care even slightly, nor did my previous one. This is just another way of saying you shouldnt use AWS if you dont know how to use it, Different strokes for different folks. The more I use Terraform and GCP the less I want to bother with Terraform. What I've taken to doing is prototyping on Google Cloud and then planning to migrate things to on-prem once everything is reaching maturity. there is almost nothing better for the indie hacker, bootstrapper, or startup than cloud services.. Its also nowhere near as bad as Concur/Oracle/IBM. Use up to 4 - 16 reward dollars to purchase this product! Simple dev, staging, prod environment. Step 4: Street cred improved! If you call the errors only after you submit your 1000-line yaml scripts. Also adding your barriers to entry: staff, facilities, process, etc. That gives me a completely different perspective. In an ideal world, it can start immediately and then shutdown, but more realistically it will have to spin up or batch things up at a convenient point in time. You can sleep at night knowing that you will still have a business even under a load spike, and $50 of digital Ocean buys you roughly the compute power of $1000+ of AWS managed services. AWS Lightsail is a simple fixed priced VPS. And me thinking we got to the cloud to get rid of the BOFH. There were still aspects that we wanted that we could not get Terraform/GCP to do. Some development frameworks make this a lot easier than others. I'd strongly recommend that you give Google Cloud Run a try. Thank you for the reply. How do you handle authentication and authorization when using cloud run only? Ive recommended everything from a straight lift and shift, to hybrid, to full on all in on AWS depending on the use case. And then when you need the more complex functionality, you are already in the AWS ecosystem. Was Gandalf on Middle-earth in the Second Age? Less than $5/month. I really agree with you, what's weird though is how many mega-corps are going away from Custom Hardware in Custom Built DC towards Cloud. Five weeks sounds about right based on my experience coming up to speed with Terraform. In fact, I've already migrated a fair chunk of my workload off AWS Lambda onto constantly running fly.io VMs. It helps with cold start time as well. Could an object enter or leave vicinity of the earth without being detected? > the harsh truth is that neither Lambda Functions, nor Kubernetes, nor Kafka on their own will magically make your app work correctly, be performant and deliver value. And there was a lot of drinking (and hookers and probably blow) at that company. That said: the toys were definitely shiny. 1x Uncle Sam's Hemp Honey 10mg Delta 8 Sticks. I think fargate + docker is super easy to setup, run and maintain. Do you mind if I ask u some further questions via the email in your profile? But still, if it's good enough for HN, it's good enough for lots of us. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Too bad. procreate arm template. (Or at least, use cases.). The public cloud is for businesses constrained by people; we simply could not afford to hire enough people to do the same stuff on-prem or in colo. Need storage, Heroku->S3. You can run full applications in GCR like KeyCloak or IdentityServer. And then you can take it with you. A single dedicated server from a mature provider (ideally not during its hyper-growth phase) is pretty reliable. Then waiting a few more weeks for monitoring/backups. This is the only line that actually matters. Look for wide-fit shoes for comfort.Since your feet will swell in width when you have lymphoedema, a standard width shoe may not feel very comfortable on your foot.Wide fit shoes come in more than one width to accommodate people with different foot sizes and different levels of swelling.
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